If you really stop and think about it, is female circumcision really all that different from dental braces?
In the first female circumcision female circumcision case in US History, Khalid Adem was found guilty of mutilating his then two-year old daughter and sentenced to ten years in prison. Many activists, who view the practice as an attempt to rob women of sexual pleasure, lauded the decision as an advance in women’s rights. While this may be the case, it could also be America’s latest addition in our ongoing quest of cultural imperialism. If you really stop and think about it, is female circumcision really all that different from dental braces?
While women’s rights activists have long maintained that the only reason the practice is carried out is to rob women of sexual pleasure, this is largely a view that has come from the west. In interviews with both male and female Africans in countries where the practice is carried out, many have maintained that they believe circumcision makes a woman cleaner, more beautiful, and a more suitable bride. Others have said that if a woman is uncircumcised and tries to give birth to a child, the baby will die should its head touch the clitoris. While it is apparent that these things are not true, is it really these people’s fault that they have grown up in a society that dictates such standards of beauty?
When I was about sixteen, my parents finally decided that I needed to get braces. My teeth were fairly crowded and not straight, but I had lived with them for that long so what was the big deal? My parents, like most, thought that I would have an easier time in life with straighter teeth because I would instantly be more attractive. They also feared that the teasing I had endured for so long had taken a mental toll on me as well. Perhaps it had, but would any of these things be of grave concern had I grown up in Great Britain? I think you can look at the average Englishman and answer that for yourself.
If women are equal to men, why should women have special laws to protect their private parts?
And if you aren’t buying the braces comparison, let’s look at it from another angle. Each day in America, thousands of newborn baby boys are circumcised, often without anesthesia. The reasons are pretty idiotic if you ask me. Some people think it is cleaner, some people think it looks better, and other still maintain that they want their sons to be just like his father. Coincidentally, America is pretty much the only industrialized nation that routinely circumcises boys. Should we start prosecuting parents for genital mutilation because they are robbing their sons of their foreskins and countless nerve endings? Doesn’t it also seem a little odd that women’s rights activists, who fight for female equality never mention male circumcision or call that a form of mutilation or a human rights violation? If women are equal to men, why should women have special laws to protect their private parts?
The bottom line is that many cultures do many idiotic things and when you have a country that is a cultural melting pot, many of these idiotic things are going to start to appear. The way to fix the problem is not to denounce a parent –who is acting in what has been culturally ingrained as the best interest of his child –as a child abuser. Change happens by awakening people to new ideas and new viewpoints. Until we take the time to understand why people believe things they do, the problems will only continue. With a new direction, however, perhaps people everywhere will live full, happy lives with clitorides, foreskins, and crooked teeth.
55 responses so far ↓
Joe // Nov 2, 2006 at 1:08 pm
well.. good points have been brought up.
David // Nov 2, 2006 at 3:09 pm
WOW… how true this really is… although I always wished my parents got me braces!
Cindy // Nov 2, 2006 at 6:10 pm
What kind of sexist a-hole wrote this!! Cutting off foreskin is not the same as cutting a woman’s clitoris..and its especially nothing like straightening your teeth. You should have your brain circumsized!!!
Maryanne // Nov 3, 2006 at 12:08 am
They claim they make a more suitable because they’re less likely to cheat or have already lost their virginity. Further, cutting off the clitoris isn’t the only kind of female genital mutilization they also sew women’s labia shut from time to time. The comparison to male circumsicion is pretty unfounded when you realize the normal male infant is around 24 hours old with the memory of about 30 seconds. It’s done in a sterile hospital with surgical instruments and by a professional (minus religious preferences). Female genital mutilation typically occurs in toddlers up to adolescents sometimes 10 to 14 years old. In many countries it is performed with broken glass or other dirty tools, in a filthy area and the child is under no anesthesia.
Many adults happily get braces as soon as they can afford them. Some men grow up and get circumsized for whatever their personal choices are. Do you know any adult women from any culture who would ask for someone to do that to them?
Thomas // Nov 3, 2006 at 5:30 am
The problem is that in many countries not only would adult women do it, it is often adult women that do it to their daughters. Don’t forget too that many of these countries have similar procedures for boys that are of about the same age. Read Black Sisters Speak Out by Awa Thiam, Warrior Marks by Alice Walker, and Do They Hear You When You Cry by Fauziya Kassindja for more perspectives about this. You will see, as I pointed out, that however idiotic it is, people really actually believe it is for what’s best.
As for the argument about male circumcision being in a sterile hospital, do you mean to tell me you would be okay with female circumcision were it done in a hospital with surgical instruments? Something tells me the answer to that is no. What difference does it make that he may not remember it? Think about what it says about us that we accept something so violent inflicted upon someone so young just because “he probably won’t remember it.”
Oh yeah, I am not sexist.
Maryanne // Nov 3, 2006 at 11:54 am
You forget Thomas, I’m against male circumcision too
Betty // Nov 4, 2006 at 5:04 pm
This comparison is completely absurd. I’m not sure that sexism has anything to do with your opinion- I think you’re just grossly underinformed about female circumcision. Like Maryanne mentioned, it is also often accompanied by the sewing shut of the labia, to ensure that the girl will remain a virgin until she is married. A tiny opening is left for urination and menstruation, both of which become painful ordeals for the rest of the girl’s life. And it is a VERY sexist practice. I’m not afraid to say that in this case, I’m NOT going to accept their religion as an acceptable excuse. Women become objects which can be altered and controlled at the expense of their well-being, for the benefit of their husbands and fathers. Mothers do perform the ceremony occasionally, but that’s obviously the result of patriarchal indoctrination.
I don’t even want to address your comparison to getting braces, because it’s insulting. Aside from the fact that crooked teeth can lead to hygenic problems and jaw pains and such, any “pain” suffered in the braces process is completely incomparable to female circumcision.
Lastly, the primary reason for male circumcision is prevention of infection, that lovely substance known as smegma, and reduction of risk of contracting HIV. True fact. It’s pretty much entirely hygenic reasons, which is why the procedure has become so routine in hospitals. I’m not sure why there’s an aversion to it in other industrialized nations, and I honestly don’t know enough about the subject to elaborate further.
I just needed to vent, because I find your elaborate metaphor incredibly poorly informed, and you belittle the pain suffered by thousands of girls and women by comparing it to being an awkward teenager. Come on. Have some effing respect.
Theo // Nov 4, 2006 at 7:53 pm
It’s absurd that people would suggest that the author of the article have “some effing respect” while at the same time that they are being insensitive to the cultural mores that other societies have.
How would the author of one of the rebuttals feel about non-religious based practices around the world such as Chinese foot-crushing where mothers bond their daughters feet into a pre-conceived notion of triangular perfection? Isn’t that also extremely cruel and painful?
Or what about the antiquated practice of chopping off a hand of a thief? Isn’t that barbaric?
We value dogs as much as other humans and yet Koreans eat them as food. On the flip side, Indians (from India) find cows to sacred while we have a billion dollar industry that slaughters them daily.
Who are we as U.S. citizens, members of the world’s great melting pot, to say that the societal values of other people are wrong when we ask for understanding for our own practices?
Sure, female gential mutilation is cruel and highly unusual by U.S. standards, but I believe it’s not our business to regulate a standard practice from other counties. After all, we are supposed to be a country bourne on an understanding that people have the freedom to maintain their own values and traditions without assimilating into the American mainstream.
Zach // Nov 4, 2006 at 10:54 pm
It is true that we must be conscious and sensitive to other cultural practices in other countries (as well as recognizing that our customs can be equally as bizarre); however, with the advent of transcontinental travel, there was also the unintentional development of a macro-society. So…..while the laissez-faire sounds like a good concept in theory, I think there is some give and take involved. This sort of imperialism does not particularly bother me as much as say…mining in Chile under their only clean water source in the area. But that’s just me.
Ann // Nov 5, 2006 at 12:58 am
So, because something is a part of someone’s culture, tradition and society makes it right?
Once upon a time it was publicly sanctioned for white racists to castrate and torture black men for hours before they were lynched. It was publicly sanctioned and written on the law books that it was against the law for a white man to marry a black woman: rape her, sexually coerce her and get her pregnant, and abandon her and the child you impregnated her with.
But not to marry her.
So by all laws these people from overseas, if they came here to America during the time of these racist practices and did not like them, what, they were supposed to do the same things to black people just because it was the white racist South’s “practices”?
Just because certain cultures/societies (African, Arabic cultures, etc.) does this practice does not make it right.
FGM is a form of control against the woman, not to mention some men’s fear and hatred of women.
And, yes, I consider hacking off the baby boy’s foreskin harsh. Maybe not as harsh as a girl’s clitoridectomy (which, by the way, gives her sexual stimulation, which obviously these men want to take that away from women and girls), but it is something that I hate having to think about a baby going through.
And I definately hate to have girls have their femaleness removed from them. They came into te world with these parts intact.
They should have a right to leave the world with them intact.
Thomas // Nov 5, 2006 at 9:39 am
The fact that I cited three books for everyone to read on the subject should they so choose should tell everyone that I am hardly underinformed. In actuality I spent an entire semester studying this subject in a course at school. Yes, I do understand that the female circumcision can range from “minimally” removing the clitoral hood, up to Pharonic Circumcision/Infibulation which you have all explained is removing basically everything and sewing up what is left.
My analogy to braces and male circumcision was not meant to be a flippant one, nor to say that I am insensitive to what these women must go through. The point, however, is to show this is not as easy as saying something is right and wrong. As Theo and Ann pointed out, many things were cultural practices for a long time. True they are unfortunate, hideous, maybe even barbaric, but let’s ask a larger question here. When did NOT being revolutionary become a crime? If you live in a society in which something is normal (straight teeth, circumcision, triangular feet), isn’t the attempt to ascribe to normalcy an instinct?
As far as the whole hygienic argument regarding male circumcision, the silliness here is just as silly as the people that try to justify female circumcision for reasons of cleanliness. If you don’t wash something, of course it is going to be dirty. If you have a foreskin, clean it. It really is not rocket science. Further while there have been studies to suggest that removal of the foreskin may reduce the likelihood of HIV infection, it is hardly conclusive. And what if it was? Removing people’s penises in areas that have highly concentrated HIV rates would accomplish the same thing. So would making it a crime punishable by death for anyone that is HIV positive to have sex. I hardly think anyone would condone anything like that. Furthermore, compared to how long America has been circumcising boys, HIV/AIDS is but a drop in the bucket of time. If women have the right to leave the world intact, shouldn’t men? Isn’t rather degrading to women in general to say that femaleness is completely tied to have a clitoris?
The point is that we make attempts to justify any practices that America does, but never take the time to actually listen to why people in other places do the things they do before we condemn them. I never said female circumcision was a good thing and I never said that perhaps people should not try to see it come to an end. The way to do it, however, is not to tell people they are wrong, crazy, and barbaric and then throw them in jail.
Ann // Nov 5, 2006 at 7:37 pm
“If women have a right to leave this world intact, shouldn’t men?”
Yes, they should. I thought I was clear on that in my comment.
Years ago, when I was a child, I saw a documentary on baby boys being circumcised. The babies were tied in swaddling clothes (I guess that term is not too anachronistic).
Anyway, the doctors/medical people from what I can remember, were going around, from baby to baby, slicing off the wee one’s foreskins.
Needless to say, the babies screamed in pain.
Even at a young age, something told me that that was quite barbaric to put those little babies through that pain, whether or not they would remember it a second later, an hour later, or a year later.
They came into this world intact, and I felt that no one had the right to take from them, WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION what was rightfully theirs. But, of course being babies they had no say so in the matter.
Years later, I saw a talk show program on men and circumcision. One man on the stage told of hwow he felt violated because of his foreskin being removed when he was a baby, and that he had a surgeon replace the foreskin through surgery with skin grafted from his body.
He too felt that he should have been able to not only have a say so in what he came into the world with, but he also felt that his right to have a say so was taken from him as an infant.
I am not above sitting down and discussing face-to-face with people who strongely believe in FGM. I know that I can learn something from them about their stance on something that is an integral part of their culture.
On the other hand, they also stand to gain something from me on how I feel about this practice. But, it will also depend on the person I am talking to: whether it is a woman, or a man.
And I am capable of keeping an open mind about why they feel this practice is of such great importance to them, culturally.
Yes, I am a Westener in thought. I cannot help it. I was born and raised in America.
But, that does not mean that I am so closed-minded that I cannot give the other person a hearing and listen patiently, and with an open mind, on their viewpoint.
Who knows.
I may be able to get them to change their way of looking at women, and their society as to the use of this procedure.
And I know that the best way to try and get a person to come around to my point of view is to listen, not rant; understand, not condemn; engage meaningful and attentive dialogue, not insults and invectives.
Afterall, you get more better results when you approach the subject from the other person’s point of view. And as to why they think any aspect of their culture is something that has validity to them.
Pat Greene // Nov 6, 2006 at 8:01 am
You all claim to have some idea of how it is to have an open mind, when all you want to do is argue. Someone makes a comment and then you cannot just read the comment and continue, you have to include a segment of their comment and then argue with them in a pollite way.
Have any of the women posting on here, or even just reading here, had female circumcision?
NO!, all you want to do is come on here and argue, with no personal experience other than having watched a show about male circumcision years ago.
Until a woman who has had this procedure done to them posts comments on here, no one really has anything to argue.
I have intentionally left my sex unmentioned, so as not to have ayone reply about this comment as being biased in anyway.
J // Nov 8, 2006 at 2:49 am
Well, no, I have not had the procedure done. However, I have an opinion. Even though I don’t have personal experience it shouldn’t mean that I shouldn’t express my thoughts. I find it strange that no one has stopped to compare the actual genitalia of females and males. While I am against male circumcision, I believe that men who’ve had the procedure can lead “normal” lives. They can still have pleasureable sex. The clitoris actually compares with the head of the penis and not with the foreskin. So, the two types of circumcision are kind of incomparable because while one removes skin and not total sensation, the other removes sexual pleasure which I think should be thought of as sort of a human right.
Ann // Nov 8, 2006 at 11:14 am
I have never had this procedure as well, but I still consider it the ultimate form of fear and hatred towards women’s bodies and women’s sexuality:
“FGM is a form of control against the woman, not to mention some men’s fear and hatred of women.
And, yes, I consider hacking off the baby boy’s foreskin harsh. Maybe not as harsh as a girl’s clitoridectomy (which, by the way, gives her sexual stimulation, which obviously these men want to take that away from women and girls), but it is something that I hate having to think about a baby going through.
And I definately hate to have girls have their femaleness removed from them. They came into the world with these parts intact.
They should have a right to leave the world with them intact.”
Meh have always had a fear of women’s bodies:
-the forcing of women to wear chastity belts, many of which caused women to die from lead poisoning, since these belts at that time were made of lead;
-fear of women’s menstruation and treating it as some form of abnormality to be avoided, when in essence, it is a time of a girl becoming a woman; a normal body function;
-fear of women who eschewed marriage and had little contact with men, which in some societies, caused psychologically disturbed people to ostracize, or worse, burn women at the stake because they did not follow a socities’s ideas of “normalcy”
Yes, male circumcision pales in comparison to FGM.
Once the clitoris is removed via clitoridectomy, it is gone. Never to be replaced. And as I stated in my previous post, a man can get his foreskin restored though cosmetic sx; but, a woman can NEVER regain the clitoris that was taken from her.
Men have always had a fear of women’s sexuality.
This is a fact of life. To many men, just the thought that women can enjoy what they are SUPPOSED to enjoy: sex, pleasure, and sexual stimulation, fills some men with dread and anger.
It’s just a sadistic way of saying:
“I got my penis, my scrotum and everything else. I’m going to enjoy sex. And you are not. Therefore, I will cut away what you were born into this world with. I will take from you what is rightfully yours via God. I will be cruel to you in a way that I would not want anyone to be cruel to me in any way, shape, or fashion. I will deny you, WOMAN, the right to be what you are: A sentient being who has the right to keep INTACT what you were born into this world with.”
But, on the other hand, it does not help that there are some women out there in these particular socities that condone this practice, women who are just as eager as the men are, to keep this barbaric cruelty going on. Seems like many of them are just as guilty as the men. And many of them are just as much gung ho to curry favor with the men who desire this mutilation.
Hmm.
Anything to keep a man?
Jay // Nov 8, 2006 at 11:27 am
You’re an idiot. Braces don’t cause harm. Cutting off a womans clit is permanent.
plplokok // Nov 11, 2006 at 9:14 am
Maybe in the countries where the practice is performed regularly, THOSE people would possibly compare female circumcision to braces.
The notion that you think WE should think like that because we live in a multicultural world is SICK.
In some Asian countries it’s been common practice to kill or otherwise dispose of female children upon birth. Should that be tolerated here because it is not considered wrong there.
When women in Afghanistan were forced to wear wooden shoes and being beaten for making any audible sound while walking, was that okay?
Think before you type. This may have been the most ignorant thing I ever read. And not entertaining ignorant, just plain sad.
Disgusted // Nov 11, 2006 at 6:58 pm
You are so ignorant, it makes me want to cry.
I’m not going to even mention your vane attempt to compare braces to circumcision.
The only men who care about being circumsised are those who want to take women’s rights away. How does it harm them so? They still have sexual pleasure whereas women being circumcised are unable to have sexual pleasure.
Women who have had circumcision are the ones that we need to hear, not some idiot like you.
Listening to individuals who have been through the ordeal is important. THAT’S called being open-minded, smart, and understanding.
“Ignorance is venemous, and it murders the soul Like a virus running rampant, but out of control”
kari // Nov 14, 2006 at 1:48 am
No no no … a two year old shouldn’t have that decision made for her. If she wants to get a circumcised thats her decision. Its horrible!! Never having an orgasm? Gah thats like saying its castration is ok…Braces fix a problem they dont cause them
D. Stone // Nov 14, 2006 at 11:44 am
This is one of the most idiotically reasoned pieces I’ve read in some time. It’s especially ironic and said that anything of this low-watt nature could find it’s way onto any web site with “think” in its URL–it’s an insult to the term.
If prosecuting those who carry out genital mutilation is cultural imperialism, then I say three cheers for cultural imperialism.
The author fails to address the fundamental issue–how can it be morally justified to impose a sexual disability on a female without her consent? If the woman upon reaching, say 18, and without social pressure was to decide to do it, then fine.
Female genital mutilation is a savage, misogynist practice that needs to be eradicated.
Thomas // Nov 15, 2006 at 4:04 am
I should chime in here and say that while everyone continues to call me ignorant and talk about how misogynistic the practice is, and how insensitive I am, no one has actually taken the time to read any of the books I have cited about the issue. And that is just three. If you really want a reading list, send me an email and I can give you dozens.
Furthermore, everyone seems to act as if I am condoning the practice and saying that nothing needs to be done about it. The argument in total here is that every society does things that are sometimes not only unnecessary, but completely idiotic. Does a parent that does things to their child that are normal in their own society automatically become a criminal? If there is a norm, isn’t it a natural parental instinct to want your child to be normal?
By always regarding other people’s practices in that way while never taken the time to look at own and ask whether they are equally as idiotic or unnecessary, rather than making us culturally sensitive to the plights of other people, it makes us culturally insensitive with an air of inherent cultural and moral superiority. That is all. No one is advocating more female circumcisions, but instead looking at it in a way other than saying, all they are doing is abusing women. It is NOT that simple.
Ann // Nov 15, 2006 at 7:37 am
I should chime in here and say that while everyone continues to call me ignorant and talk about how misogynistic the practice is, and how insensitive “;
Furthermore, everyone seems to act as if I am condoning the practice and saying that nothing needs to be done about it.”
“Everyone” is NOT calling you ignorant or misogynistic. And everyone is not saying you are condoning the practice of FGM.
I have not called you idiotic, insensitive or anything else.
My comments are of my research on FGM.
And yes it should be abolished.
Men’s fear and hatred of women’s sexuality knows no bounds, and FGM is just a more sadistic curtailing and destruction of what women were born into this world with, just as men.
If men have the right to enjoy sex and appreciate their body parts, I know that women have that right too.
Afterall, women are human beings.
But, try telling that to some other “human beings” out there in the world.
So, please, no more blanket statements about “everyone”.
Thanks.
Mahkeria // Nov 15, 2006 at 1:48 pm
” no one has taken time to read any of the books that I have cited about the issue” This is assuming that you know that, right? Really Thomas, you should keep reading.
At least you knew what you were talking about when you recounted your braces experience. Leave the female circumcision to those of us who have actually experienced it. Please. Books my suffice for you, but I don’t believe that that is enough.
Gabriel // Nov 15, 2006 at 10:54 pm
To answer the question, “What’s the difference?”: Braces are not harmful, are not based on stupid misogynistic cultural ideals, and are sometimes beneficial beyond just the cosmetic.
Just because most of the women in that misogynistic culture believe genital excision is acceptable does not make it so. Women in abusive relationships will often defend their abuser. This is just a similar phenomenon occurring culturally. Given a proper education, and distance from their abusive culture, I can safely assure you that most of those women would change their opinion.
Thomas, seeing as you have presumably read three books on the subject, I’d say you are proof that a person can be well informed and still be an idiot.
As to your assertion that this comparison was not meant to be flippant, I believe you are not being honest. You put that statement in bold letters at the top (not once, but twice) because you knew it was provocative and would create a strong reaction, and it gets that reaction because it comes off as flippant. If you don’t see that, you are either deluded or stupid.
I don’t see how you can compare the suffering and degradation, the permanent detriment to life quality inflicted on women who are genitally mutilated to the negligible effects of male circumcision. It’s a ridiculous comparison obviously meant to be inflammatory and is beneath contempt.
Lex Black // Nov 16, 2006 at 1:54 am
I don’t particualrly have an opinion about this: on whether it is universally right or wrong. I personally don’t like the idea of male circumcision but it does prevent certain diseases.
What I want to say is tha: Yes, if he had done this in his country of birth, it would be fine. He didn’t He did it in America where any form of home surgery that may result in NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE is illegal in any form.
I cannot believe you compared braces to a clitoredectomy. I had braces, my baby sister (well, technically not baby anymore as she is starting high school) also has braces. Yes, they are painful, but they are removable. They permenantly affect you for the better if anything. My sis and I even used colored bands as fashion statements.
A surgical removal of a woman’s sexual organs against her will and the betterment of her health (such as a hysterectomy would be in some cases) is purely cruel. I realize that in many countries, women will never be as socially valued as women, but you would think that banning them from showing their faces and forcing them into unwanted marriages at age 12 would be enough without sticking a blade between her legs and hacking away.
I agree quite a bit with Gabriel. Sometimes people in various culture, be they male or female, do not know what is best for them. I’m no saying that the more quote/unquote civilized people should make that judgment for them. However, when someone commits blatant crimes against humanity (Geneva Convention) someone should intervene.
You cite Chinese foot binding. That was banned. And though some of the more fanatical old people support it, most Chinese women are very happy not to have it done.
On the other side, we do have to look at the cultures. For instance, some women still bind their necks to make them absurdly long for beauty. The difference is, however, that this only shapes the body differently, and does not take away any of the rgans.
Male circumcisions take place in America in sterile hospitals and are performed carefully. Cliterodectomies (as no upstanding American doctor would perform one) are often done in dangerous environments. Men still have their main sexual organs and stimulant. The woman who has been circumcised does not.
This is not a matter of beauty or purity or even womanhood for me. This is a matter of CHOICE. These women have been stepped upon their whole lives and if they can’t protect the one part of them that is purely female than they are violated beyond imagination. No one should have to go what that poor little toddler had to go through. She is the one we should be thinking about. What about her pain and her future, especially if she continues to live in America. That’s what gets me about a lot of people who post on these things. They think about the generality and not the individual. Can you look at a picture of the little girl and not feel pain for her for going through something as traumatic and painful at the hands of her own father? I could never find the words to describe what her pain will be when she gets older.
Paul // Nov 16, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Thomas, I have one question for you. Did you write what you wrote to find an audience to argue with you? The only possible reason that someone that has your vocabulary and your seeming level of intelligence would post a compare/contrast that is so ludicrous, disgusting, and inflammatory is to engender conversation by making people want to despise you simply for your words. You can see it in the reactions.
You have come across as someone who can repeat what they read and then discuss it with absolutely no reasoning or understanding whatsoever. Dental braces and female circucision are almost identical. Discuss!Oranges and Agent Orange are almost identical. Discuss! What is wrong with you?
“Male circumcisions take place in America in sterile hospitals and are performed carefully. Cliterodectomies (as no upstanding American doctor would perform one) are often done in dangerous environments. Men still have their main sexual organs and stimulant. The woman who has been circumcised does not.” THANK YOU, LEX BLACK. The most important point made.
This is the most important article in the entire blog, Thomas. It’s the most accurate, informative, unbiased statement here. Why didn’t you say it? Why did you compare dental care, which is usually welcomed by a child, or at the very least helps a child to be more comfortable about their body, to surgical removal of a young girl’s clitoris?
The “female circumcision” link, the CNN.com news article at the top of your silly speech ended with this:
“It is unknown how many girls have died from the procedure, either during the cutting or from infections, or years later in childbirth. Nightmares, depression, shock and feelings of betrayal are common psychological side effects, according to a 2001 federal report.”
Thomas, tell me do you have nightmares, or depression, or shock, or feelings of betrayal when it comes to your parents putting up hard earned cash for braces that enhance your own ability to take care of your teeth, make you look better, and improve your quality of life? Wake up and smell your B.S. Your parents were trying to enhance your life, to help you enjoy life better and more freely. They were giving you a leg up, while female circumcision only takes away from the woman, holds her back from enjoying life. If you really have that much animosity towards your parents to think that they did you a disservice, then I suggest psychiatric help. If you were completely serious in your comparison, then you sound like a Dr. Phil special.
Seriously, I say this in all kindness, this article alone really threatens your reputation as a writer, journalist, blogger, or whatever you consider yourself. I don’t know if this is your job or your hobby. I don’t know if you have any kind of degree to have any authority to be making such an insane attempt at affecting change in other people.
If you are writing these kind of articles, from an informative website than you yourself should be informative. You yourself should be honest and unbiased. You yourself should do your homework(don’t care about any three books that you’ve read; if they lead you to these kind of conclusions, then you need to keep reading).
Lastly, you yourself, need to think! You need to think about what you say before you say it. You need to think about trying to affect people in a positive way and not a negative. You need to think about how some people can be gullible enough to believe anything they read. You need to think about a little thing called sensitivity. Not that you need to be politically correct, but if you’re going to start a conversation that is so inflammatory, then you better bring more to the table then, “I read three books, go read them too.” Really, if they’re so informative, then quote them, tell us why to read these books. Don’t just tell us to go read them and learn something. I actually probably will look over these books sometime in the future, but not by the time this blog will be out of the recent articles section. I’m sure that you didn’t read all three within the time of a week or a couple of months. Finally, think about the fact that the rights of the young girl in this country must come before a cultural difference from another culture in another country.
This is not France, Indonesia, or Iran. If someone from one of those countries comes here legally, I welcome them. If they want to celebrate their culture here, I welcome that. If they think they can break the law because they came from a country that accepted it as law or it was a staple of their culture, then they’re wrong. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and we should uphold our laws without excuse, without guilt, and without a doubt. We should enforce the law of the land, the land that they came to, the land that has given them many inalienable rights, that some other countries don’t have. But we have laws that they must obey. We don’t have to agree with their culture. The individual has to conform to the laws of the country he or she lives in.
Also, regarding male circumcision, “Research by the World Health Organization published in the US Public Library of Science Medicine journal in July, 2006, showed that men who had been circumcised had a significantly lower risk of infection with the AIDS virus, and calculated that if all men were circumcised over the next 10 years, some two million new infections could be avoided.” I think it’s wonderful that our country’s medical community is trying to decrease the risk of disease by male circumcision. The research points to this being true and it’s rarely causes complications. I am a male, who is circumcised, and sex is great for me. My wife is uncircumcised and I know, for a fact, that she wouldn’t enjoy sex nearly as much without a clitoris. If you need me or anyone else to explain this to you, then you need to do some more reading. And if you think for a second, that American law has to adapt itself to every nuance of any person’s culture from anywhere on the planet, especially sexist, insidious, and disgusting practices like this, then I am very happy that blogging is the worst damage you can do right now and that you are not in politics or a judge or something. Now, that would be a crime against humanity.
Thomas // Nov 18, 2006 at 12:30 am
I will again reiterate the larger points made in this blog and again say that if people stop being so emotional about the analogies I made, they will see the larger picture.
1. As I pointed out the reasons people claim they do the procedure are manifold.Whether or not to our Western eyes these reasons are completely ludicrous and nonsensical, did the people that do the procedure willfully define that beautiful women must be circumcised? No more than anyone in America’s parents defined beauty as being attached to straight teeth.
2. The evidence is still inconclusive whether or not male circumcision does reduce HIV rates. And again, this is still irrelevant. We know that castraton of HIV positive people would decrease rates, as would euthanasia. The health argument is therefore completely specious.
3. In one of the books I cited, one woman who has been circumcised argues that saying these women have no more sexual pleasure is a myth because it implies that clitoral orgasm is the only attainable one. Whether or not this is true, I highly doubt that even if it were proven that female circumcsion could be done safely and women could still orgasm that anyone could condone it.
4. The point of this blog is not to belittle the pain and suffering these women must feel but to point out that standards of beauty, cleanliness, etc., are quite obviously arbitrarily defined in each society and it is often not by the current generation’s parents. Rather than labeling people in various societies as misogynistic, violent, or whatever other words we can come up with, we’d do better to realize some of our own practices make very little sense and also very systematically try to change the way people THINK, not simply throw them in prison for ten years.
Scott // Nov 19, 2006 at 2:35 pm
I would like to insert a somewhat non-biased voice of reason here if possible:
I see many things wrong with the way this topic is being debated. But I do see many things right. Let me try to break it down.
First of all, anyone who holds a passionate view about any topic and supports it with emotional response is not using intelligent or tactful debate. This goes for every person here who has called any one else a name like “stupid”, “idiotic”, asking “what is wrong with you”, etc etc etc… I think you get the point.
While people have every right to be enraged and appalled at the idea of female mutilation they are not helping the cause of abolishing it by insulting the person who is being analytical.
I see this as one of the biggest, thickest walls that keeps humans from progressing socially. I see this as a major difficulty within activism, politics, even art. People are so busy shooting their mouths off and trying to sound the most “right” that they over look the merest value in even the most “wrong” argument. In other words, your emotions blind you from looking at thing in perspective.
I truly feel that it is possible to hold on to your beliefs while carrying on tactful, respectful debate. You do not compromise your beliefs by listening to what someone else has to say, validating it by acknowledging its value and then retorting with intelligent conversation. This does not include insulting people, calling names, relying in emotions etc. etc. etc. While all this might be fun among friends or people you know well, it isn’t useful among strangers.
I’m sure I’ve been guilty of doing this in the past myself. It isn’t easy to put your emotions aside. But I think it is essential.
Ben // Nov 21, 2006 at 3:25 am
Why do these cultures do this to their women? The answer if you ask the men that do this they say it is culture and tradition. What they are doing is physicaly cutting away their humanity so they can more easily treat them as property. Braces don’t make you someones property, nore does male circumsision. FGM makes women the sexual property of men which is in my opinion a violation of human rights. People who defend this are sacrificeing human rights upon the alter of culture. The only reason a woman would volunteer for this kind of thing is if she were made, or forced to believe it was a good thing.
Sphynx // Nov 22, 2006 at 11:09 am
I took some time to think over this one before responding. Alot of the responses are far too emotionally derived to be accepted as part of the discussion. The question really comes down to, ‘Does a parent have a right to circumsize their daughter?’
I guess that totally depends on the reason for it. My parents circumsized me (I’m a guy) because they were raised believing that the extra skin held an increased chance of maintaining filth, and thus bacteria, and other non-desirables. They thought of my health when making the decision. I find it unlikely that is the case with women. My sister got braces because the doctor told my parents that her teeth, growing into each other, would cause her pain and discomfort and early tooth loss as well as increased chance for gum disease. Again, health reasons. I don’t think female circumsision has any health reasons, but I could be wrong.
If the reason is in order to care better for the child, of course they should have that right. If the reason is to limit the child’s Rights due to parent standards, or even solely for the purpose of beautifying, that decision should be left to the child when they are of age to make that decision, not the parents.
I must therefore disagree with the Author’s evaluation and comparisson unless it can be shown that female circumsision grants the girl a healthier lifestyle (healthier not being defined as a non-desire for sex)
Thomas // Nov 23, 2006 at 5:47 am
Thanks for your comment. As for the “health” concern, as I pointed out above some people in these cultures believe that it is indeed “cleaner” if a woman is circumcised, or also that if a woman is uncircumcised, should the head of a baby touch the clitoris during childbirth, the baby will die. Obviously these things are untrue, but still a belief. Even gum disease or bacteria that could result from an unwashed foreskin is debatable when you look at the fact that the majority of men in the world are uncircumcised, and that many people, even in industrialized countries, never get braces. I think the only point I really wanted to make with this blog is that when trying to change something that is quite obviously a cultural practice, it is best to look at the practice relatively and see how many of our practices are just as “silly,” regardless of whether or not they are quite as “barbaric.” At that point, one can put emotions aside and work on a more logical level to try to get people to change their ways.
Sphynx // Nov 23, 2006 at 6:14 am
There’s a major difference between “silly”/”barbaric” and “life threatening”/”mutilation”. The only thing I can think of, in western culture, that could relate to giving a female a circumcision, is giving someone piercings. Except that, unlike circumcision, piercings will heal over and not cause irreperable psychological damage to the recipient.
So, on the assumption we have already considered our own similar practices (which I don’t believe exist), we have put our emotions aside and started to work on a more logical level to try to get peopel to change their ways, via making laws, and sentencing this person to 10 years for breaking it.
Scott // Nov 23, 2006 at 11:14 am
Sphynx, I think your perspective is interesting and unique, however you seem ill informed of the way our prison system works here in the US. It isn’t about education or reform. It’s about punishment. Research has proven that people don’t change their ways at the threat of punishment, in fact they tend to resist more often.
Sphynx // Nov 24, 2006 at 5:03 am
You couldn’t be more correct on that subject Scott. But that’s changing the subject to how people should be treated. I wasn’t being a proponent for certain types of sentencing, just stating the example given. The guy this blog is about got 10 years imprisonment, that was the ‘more logical level’ after having put emotions aside. Ie: I agree with someone taking action against someone who performed said crime, and propose against the blog, that it’s valid to consider it a crime.
RB // Nov 24, 2006 at 9:20 pm
This article brings up important issues.
I think the analogy between dental braces and circumcision are instructive, but limited. They are both body modifications. They are both not strictly necessary. However, the modification done by dental braces involves removing no irreplaceable parts. Braces disconnect no nerve endings, and do not leave sensation altered. Furthermore, if desired, the effects of braces are mainly reversible, by using braces again an a manner opposite to the first time. Circumcision, quite the opposite, removes irreplaceable parts, disconnects numerous nerve endings, materially alters sensation, and cannot be reversed.
On the idea of complete cultural relativism, the argument must fail, and is *probably* not meant in full seriousness by the writer. It fails because its logical conclusion must be to permit absolutely anything which is acceptable to at least someone somewhere.
Many responders to this article erect tall straw men, by rightly noting that some forms of female genital cutting are far more damaging than some forms of male genital cutting. The fair comparison, however, is removal of a female’s clitoral hood versus removal of the male’s foreskin. They are anatomically identical tissue, and an equivalent human rights issues.
The real story here, as usual, is the cognitive dissonance of so many people between genital cutting of males and females demonstrated by many responding to this article. This is most readily and understandably apparent in circumcised men, who have a vested interest in affirming their own feelings of adequacy and wholeness. Tragically, they are not sexually whole, and their inability to recognize it leads them to harm their children.
Anyone who aspires for the betterment of mankind, and genuine progress of civilization, will conclude that an end to all non-essential genital cutting of non-consenting persons must be a part of that vision.
Scott // Nov 25, 2006 at 6:32 pm
RB, Beautifully stated.
Sphynx, I’m not sure I see your point. If you’re validating the system by stating that we have a right to sentence this person due to a supposed crime they commited, how can you then back away and say you’re not validating the sentencing? That is basically ignoring how the system works. I’m not changing the subject, I’m considering all angles.
Sphynx // Nov 26, 2006 at 8:57 am
Exactly as you said, Scott. I agree that it’s a valid issue to create laws against and permanently dissuade people from doing, but don’t neccessarily agree with the method of doing so. If you come up with a way to stop crime without punishment, present the idea to someone. Not agreeing that punishment is the best way isn’t saying I have a better option. It’s simply saying that there should be a better one, one day.
zxcvbnm // Nov 26, 2006 at 10:14 pm
Female circumcision is like cutting off the ENTIRE penis, not just the foreskin.
Sphynx // Nov 27, 2006 at 11:04 am
No it’s not.
Nathan // Nov 27, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Female circumcision is in no way like cutting off a man’s entire penis. Woman who recieve this procedure are still able to have sexual intercourse, though gets no pleasure from it.
I do not agree with female circumcision. UNLESS it is the choice of the patient, and that choice was not influenced. People have a right to choose what happens to his/her body. It is a human right.
Why do you think that the law for informed consent was put into use? So people know what is happening to their body and what the risks are. I believe that there should be an individual age of consent strictly for medical practices, including circumcisions. Both men and woman should be able to leave this world as they entered if that is their wishes. If they want the procedure, ask for it, if not, don’t.
Terry // Nov 30, 2006 at 8:19 pm
Regarding a previous comment:
QUOTE: After all, we are supposed to be a country bourne on an understanding that people have the freedom to maintain their own values and traditions without assimilating into the American mainstream. :END QUOTE
For most of its history, America has been viewed as a “Melting Pot”. If you came to this country, you were expected to become an American. In the early 20th century, immigrants recognized the value of learning English and adopting American cultural standards as a means to succeeding in their new world. Our founders never intended for our citizens to continue to act like members of another culture.
Name one other country in the world where this is expected. If I move to Pakistan, would I not be expected to adopt their customs, language, and ways? America was called the melting pot because people from all nations were welcome to “melt into” and become one of us.
Nathan // Dec 1, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Yes, America as been look apon as a “Melting Pot” for many years. Then you have to look at the ridiculous way we need to make everything ‘Politically Correct’. Everybody worries about offending somebody else, and their culture. If you are legally in the this country, you are an American. For years you were expected to be a part of this country, and this countries culture, one made from many. But suddenly, we are expected to justlet their cultures thrive on our own? This is America, we have our own culture, our own language, our own traditions, is that so wrong? Wrong to the point that you have to obnoxiously continue with what you know? We are Americans here, that’s how it should work.
anon // Dec 10, 2006 at 11:51 pm
http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/
For the people arguing that male circumcision doesn’t affect those who are circumcised, check some of the info here.
one of the parts removed is the most sensitive part of the male body.
There were studies that found that men who were circumcised were more likely to have ED, be more likely to ejaculate prematurely, enjoy sex less, and that their partners were more likely to have some discomfort during sex, be less likely to orgasm from it.
and that some children would exhibit signs of post traumatic stress syndrome.
The best description I was given was it is like the difference between black and white and colour, you still see the picture but you sure miss a lot.
Sounds like fun to me. Too bad I wasn’t given a choice on it.
michael // Apr 14, 2007 at 3:57 am
I’d like to juxtapose two statements Ann made and see if I’m the only one who spots the irony.
vs.
Scott#2 // May 16, 2007 at 1:16 am
Wow, some very stong “emotional” statements.
It kinda bothers me that thoughout this discussion and in somecases outright screaming match, no one has taken the time to understand that there are several stages of circumcision. (one exception noted)
Why does the discussion only have to center around the most brutal (in my opinion…sorry) of the different curcumcisions?
I’m sure I will be corrected but I would think that the least of the circumcisions (in my understanding) would actually enhance a womans ability to orgasm. The procedure I am referring to is nicking the hood and thus allowing an engorged clitoris full stimulation. From my experience, many womans clitorises are not able to become exposed from under the hood and thus have a much harder time climaxing. I know this is the case with my wife.
Just for the record before anyone jumps on me two things:
1. I fully agree that the “proceedures” used in africa are (in my opinion) completely stupid.
2.I am circumcised and I for one am thankfull I am. (part culture, part sex and part hygene)
Almost forgot: someone mentioned that this discussion needs to have and opinion from a woman that is circumcised…..I would LOVE to hear there thoughts as well!!
Open Minded // May 17, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Wow. im finishing up a term paper on the subject and i was searching the web for some more information this evening when i came upon this blog. i had my own opinions to start, but all of you have given me something i would never have thought i would have gotten through the research ive been doing for this paper. youve all given me a much more open mind.
i feel that FGM is wrong, cruel, and unjust as humans do have rights and fgm takes those rights away.
i just feel like all of you who seem to want to make a difference are wasting your time arguing about the subject and not doing anything about it. No im not jumping on the banwagon and becoming an activist at this very moment, but no need to argue…theyre just opinions.
yes, in my opinion, the man who was sentenced to 10 years definately deserved it. i say this with the most open mind that i can have. he lives in the united states thus he should follow the laws of that country, wether or not they follow his cultural upbringing, or he should be convicted, just as any other “american” for his “criminal” action as it was against the law to do what he had done in the country he was living in at the time.
i know most of you are going to try and eat me alive for this, but thomas has written his blog…maybe to be flippant and get a reaction, but he backed up the things he wrote about. it was opinionated and it was kind of dumb( just my opinion), but it was his opinion and his article and if you dont like what he is writing then you can choose to ignore it. furthermore, id like to point out that im not defending the comparison thomas made, but the fact that he made his point with something to back it up.
i do not agree with fgm and i stand by that. i also agree with the fact that if women were informed of the procedure and made the decision when they were old enough to understand the consequences, that they would decide to keep what they were given at birth. though the Rendille women in kenya do it the day they get married but they are full aware of what is happening and they feel it means becoming a woman. they feel that by enduring the pain, they will be able to withstand anything from simple hardships to childbirth.
also just to throw this in there for people reading this who do not know what happens, especially after the procedure is done,(not that i am an expert) i want you to read this article from a woman who did have it done. it will probably only take you about 10 minutes and its extremely informative. i figured id throw that in there since no one who has had it done has commented yet.
lastly guys, we all have our opinions so let each other have them. im sure all of us have done our research…. no need to have a scream fest to get points across.
http://www.hcc.hawaii.edu/~pine/Phil110/waris-dirie.html
thanks for hearing me out
nancy // May 28, 2007 at 7:33 am
Female circumcision is NOT the same as male circumcision. It is actually a way to permanently deform a woman and cause her to never have an orgasm.
In women, it is at the very least the total removal of the entire clitorus (which would be the same as removing a man’s penis).
In many cases much more is removed from the woman, making intercourse painful and distasteful.
Tyrex // Jun 6, 2007 at 10:21 am
I find it hard to believe the heated argument on this topic. Its abborrent that mutilation of the human body of any kind can be justified. Hygiene does not even come into the issue, for either male or female. The only reason for such a procedure should be for medical or genetical problems, as in other health defects such as coronary problems etc.
Miro // Aug 17, 2007 at 1:41 am
I read this quite so late to be able to read most of the replies, from the first 1/4 of the replies I read. No wonder America is bombing other countries to “leberate” them. They are bringing McDonnald ,the Colonel KFC, and Coca Cola to places that were healthy and none obece.. Where poeple casually say if someone is fat to their face and no offence is taken. Becasue there people think and appriciate and are not afraid of anything but GOD. now thanks to the Chimpanzee and his gang and the rest of the 50% + Americans that voted him a second term we hear about this crap here. You guys for most part have no clue what Thomas is talking about and will never be able to. you are impared with the false media .. hear the voice of every noise from NPR to Fox news and never hear the sound of a rain drop.
Thank you Thomas it is enlighting what you wrote.. Late better than none.
A
nwaojoo // Sep 29, 2007 at 11:43 pm
hey guys, i have not read through all the comments. but lets bring this to my home. i just had very beautiful baby girl whom i love very dearly. i want the best for her. she leaves right now in a culture where its the norm to circumcize baby girls and i leave where its against the law to do so. my question is, is there any woman out there who was circumcized or have done some ‘realistic’ reseach on the sufferings that this brings on girls when there become adult. my dating life crossed all the cultural walls to a very large extent and high in number…. i have had women who were circumcized and it did not take much for me to ‘bring them home/sexual pleasure’ with true confesion. and i will say the same thing for uncircumcized women and did also failed to bring some of them ‘home’ regardless of being circumcized or not. so please, lets shear some on the job experiences to help me make a decision on…please be opended minded and no insult. thank you
nwaojoo // Oct 1, 2007 at 12:48 am
still waiting guys
mel // Mar 19, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I am currently writing my final year dissertation on the subject of FGM/FC and I am finding it extremely difficult to remain emotionally detached, however, I am also aware that in the WEstern world, it is all too easy to turn people from non western cultures into ‘the barbaric other’ and this in turn can cause the very practice we ‘good and noble’ westerners are trying to eliminate to continue. This can be seen in post colonial African countries.
, “If Somali women change, it will be a change done by us, among us. When they order us to stop, tell us what we must do, it is offensive to the black person or the Muslim person who believes in circumcision. To advise is good, but not to order.”
(A. Warsame, “Social and Cultural Implications of Infibulation in Somalia,” in Female Circumcision: Strategies to Bring About Change)
I think a few people are reacting passionately to Antnio’s comment, without stopping to think about the point he is trying to make.
pamela // Aug 2, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Female circumcision cannot be compared to male circumcision. Women dont only lose sexual pleasure they also can have problems urinating and the can get infections because stuff gelts clogged during menstruation etc. Baby’s die because the birth canal is obstructed by scartissue. Women/girls die because they get infections or bleed to death or both.
No one should have to suffer this way.
vicki // Sep 15, 2008 at 8:36 am
dont you think at the end of the dy god made us this way for a reason .. he puts trust in us that we do not have sex until we are married therefore we should let nature take its corse and if peopl do wrong it is only them that should learn from their mistakes and ask for forgiveness. everyone makes mistakes and god may not forgive straight away but he might and that should be enough if you have made the mistake. But all in all we should be able to be trusted not to .. this is an apsolutly insane idea and should not be allowed i think people have exagorated religion over the millions of years as it ahs been passed through generations and people need to think really . What is a happy and nice way to live? that is what god wants
vicki 19 UK (same as above) // Sep 15, 2008 at 8:41 am
by the way i am not in fact truley religious im just a 19 year old girl doing sociology right now on religion and it came up .. i do think each to their own , but seriously does my paragraph not have any sense in it at all ? i want to understand people and religion alot and i hope you can help. i am openminded .